Sussex & Surrey Soapbox
The 'Sussex & Surrey Soapbox' Podcast is a local roundtable plus special guests, exploring the issues that matter most. We tackle the topics that spark debate, challenge perspectives, and shape our communities — always with balance, openness, and respect.
Our panel brings together a diverse range of voices to unpack complex and sometimes emotive subjects, offering thoughtful discussion, differing viewpoints, and factual insight. While we don’t shy away from the tough conversations, we believe they’re best had with curiosity, good humour, and a focus on what truly matters.
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Thank you for your interest, Clive Hilton.
Sussex & Surrey Soapbox
SEND Reform: Can Every Child Truly Thrive?
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Special Guest:
- Matt Brewin, Primary School Teacher in Haywards Heath and Chair of Mid Sussex Green Party
- Paul Taylor-Burr, Community Volunteer and Parent of two children with ASD/ADHD
Roundtable Featuring: Abigail Chapman-Miller (Labour), Iqbal Khan (Tess' Kitchen) & James Tidy (Reform UK). Host: Clive Hilton.
The SEND system was built to protect vulnerable children, so why do so many parents across Sussex & Surrey describe it as a fight for basic understanding? We bring together a primary school teacher, councillors and parents with lived experience of ADHD and autism to talk plainly about what is happening on the ground: long waits, overstretched schools, and an EHCP process that can feel like a second full-time job.
We break down the jargon so you can follow the real choices families face: SEND, EHCNAs, EHCPs, ISP/ILPs, and the proposed move towards Individual Support Plans in the 2026 SEND white paper. From the classroom, we hear how inclusion is meant to work and why it so often collapses under funding gaps, fewer teaching assistants and rising need. We also get into the uncomfortable questions people avoid, including whether diagnosis is being underused or overused, what labels do to a child’s confidence, and how to make “reasonable adjustments” without leaving children unprepared for the real world.
The conversation goes beyond paperwork into what a fair education system should value. Are league tables and Ofsted driving better outcomes, or driving burnout and pushing schools away from flexibility? What would it take to make mainstream education genuinely accessible, and when is specialist provision the right answer? We finish with practical reflections for parents about coping, advocacy, and why some families feel pushed towards home education.
If you care about SEND reform, UK education policy, neurodiversity, EHCP funding, and what schools in Sussex & Surrey need to actually deliver support, this one is for you. Subscribe for more local, balanced conversations, share this with a parent or teacher who needs it, and leave us a review with your take: what should change first?
Please click on 'Send a text' above & join our Facebook group to share your perspective and suggestions for future topics - Thank you for your interest! Clive.
Welcome And Why SEND Matters
SPEAKER_06Welcome to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Real viewpoints, real opinions, and a balanced conversation on the community issues that matter.
SPEAKER_07It's the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox, and this week we're getting into Send, Special Educational Needs and Disabilities, and what that's all about and some of the changes that are coming up. Across Sussex and Surrey, thousands of parents are fighting battles they never expected for school places, assessments, therapy support, transport, or simply for their child to be understood. The Send system was designed to protect vulnerable children, but many families and teachers now describe it as exhausting, underfunded, emotionally draining, and not fit for purpose. So around the table here, let's do some quick introductions, starting with my left.
SPEAKER_00Hi, I'm Abigail Chapman Miller. I'm a Labour councillor and vice chair of the Parish Council. My day job is running a social enterprise looking at how we can improve accessibility across society.
SPEAKER_04My name is Zic Bar Khan, I'm the founder of Tess's Kitchen and a father of a child who's currently going through the situation we're going to discuss today.
SPEAKER_01Hi, my name's Paul. I do loads of different things in the community. I have two children that are ASD and ADHD, as is myself.
SPEAKER_03Hiya, my name is Matt Brain. I'm the chair of Mid Sussex and Crawley Green Party and also a uh primary school teacher in Hayward Teath.
SPEAKER_02Hi, my name's James Tidy. I'm a Reform UK councillor, the leader of the opposition on Crawley Borough Council, and the deputy leader of Reform UK on West Sussex County Council.
SPEAKER_07We're in we're in quite a warm back garden. You can hear the birds in the background. But yes, it's a very meaningful subject, it's top of lots of people's minds at the moment, and there are massive plans. I think that the last 2014, when this came about, and 2026 looking to do some reforms when it comes to send, which isn't landing particularly well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so 2026 has come around with a new white paper that's been brought out uh by the government, basically stating the ways now that we have to incorporate ISPs
Acronyms Explained And The 2026 SEND Reform White Paper
SPEAKER_03and uh EHCNAs, all before you actually get to the step of an EHCP.
SPEAKER_07So let's just quickly do some myth busting of some of these acronyms. So SEND stands for Special Educational Needs Disabilities. Um ISP.
SPEAKER_03Individual support plan, or can be known as an ILP also, which is an individual learning plan.
SPEAKER_07And that's in Sussex ILP. Yeah, so we use ILP as well by Sussex.
SPEAKER_03And it seems sorry, use ISP.
SPEAKER_07Okay, very good. And then we got EHCP.
SPEAKER_03Educational Health Care Plan. And before that, before you can get any HCP, there is a EHCNA, educational care needs assessment. Crystal clear. Okay, continue, please, Matt. Um, yeah, so the government brought out the white paper and it was supposed to try and make all of these things more coherent, but from a teacher's perspective, I can see that it's basically more paperwork, more forms to fill before you get to the goal of getting the HDP, which is the funding for the child, within a mainstream or a specialist setting uh to help them develop the needs they need, really.
SPEAKER_07And I think from my research, right, 2014 there was a Children and Families Act uh which basically included a wider age range, right, naught through to 25. Um, and a lot has happened since 2014. Demand has gone through the roof. The 2026 white paper that you're referring to isn't landing very well, is it? Because it's it, you know, just reading some of the points here, it's gonna effectively make it a little bit more difficult to get an EHCP because there's gonna be fewer of them, and it's putting more on school teachers in the education system.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think we're seeing in education, especially from where I am in primary schools, uh the need is becoming greater year upon year, especially since I'd say COVID. We're really seeing this high influx of children coming into school and having more specialist needs that we're having to provide for, but without the funds that we need to actually deliver. Um, so an EHCP, the funds that it actually gives is nowhere near the amount that you need to cover even a one-to-one if the child needs one of those. Um, so it can be very challenging because it's taking out school budgets a lot. So you're gonna see a lot more schools in deficits and problems that way.
SPEAKER_07Wow, and and and you as a teacher, teaching assistants are becoming few and far between. So it's really on the teacher to handle the situation, growing class sizes, broad spectrum of individuals, and trying to make it inclusive.
SPEAKER_03No, definitely. So in the class I'm in, I'm in
Mainstream Schools Underfunded And Stretched
SPEAKER_03a year three class, and we share a TA across the two classes because there is just not the funding. So usually you'll see that the first thing to go with in a school is a TA, um, even though the most needed person, especially when you're you've got 30, 32 children in a class and you're trying to control all of the different behavioural needs without another pair of hands, it can become very challenging.
SPEAKER_07Lots of different areas we're going to get into in this episode. Uh we've got lots and lots of experience around the table as well. Uh, Paul, with you and your your children, uh, how have you found the whole the whole situation?
Neurodiversity And A System Built For Some
SPEAKER_01Well, the whole system is geared against children with with special educational needs. Um, teaching methods are basically asystematic, so they're only taught in one particular way. And we know from research that there are like four different ways that people can learn. There's like visual, there's kinetic, there's all kinds of ways. And when you have kids that have um educational needs, so I don't like the word special, it's it like outcast them. When you've got kids that got extra needs, their learning and the way they learn is different because their brain has been wired differently, not badly, not wrongly or incorrectly. It's just different, it's just wired differently. So different things and different aspects make them learn in different ways. So people like I've done who've done research have shown that Mozart was probably autistic, without a shadow of a doubt, he had just had like massive autistic traits. Greatest musician everyone will say who ever lived. But in an educational sense, he would have completely flumped at school because he wouldn't be able to think like the way he was being taught. So when you've got that system already stacked against your children before you even set foot into a learning establishment, it already puts up barriers for people to learn.
SPEAKER_07And has this situation always been the case? When you take a population and a 60 million, has it always been the case that this has existed? Yes. Just that we've got better at seeing it, noticing it, diagnosing it.
SPEAKER_01Uh we've got better at diagnosing it and seeing it, but we've not got anywhere anywhere near better of actually utilising these people's talents and skills. I mean, one in five people are neurodivergent. So that's 20% of the population, roughly, are neurodivergent of some kind, whether it's ADHD, autism, dyspraxia, dyslexia, whatever the bracket is, that is it. One in five people have a neurodivergence, and yet the entire system is pointing towards the four in five. Whereas with a few little tweaks, productivity can go up, efficiency can go up, educational outcomes increase, which means that people then become better social mobility-wise, because at the moment Crawley has got the worst social mobility in the whole of the southeast, which is you know, there's got to be reasons for this as well. Yeah. So if you can utilize these people's way of learning and give them the power of education and knowledge, then they will blossom and improve immensely their own lives and you know, in in turn, the economy of the country, the productivity, the efficiencies, everything will increase.
SPEAKER_07If we look at some of the stats here, uh reports reference around 1,800 Surrey children with send being absent from school for over a third of the year. So that's where the the schooling, as you were saying, the education isn't really working for them. Correct. So they're actually away from school for a third of the year. Um, also the demand side, Surrey has seen EHCP demand more than double between 2018 and 2025, and that's similar in West Sussex. They reported significant increase in EHCP demand with over 1,500 additional finalised EHCPs in just a single year. And when we think about the specialist placements, uh, they cost councils roughly £50,000 per pupil for that specialist placement. So it's a it's a tough choice. And I think the 2026 white paper coming out is all around how do we make those EHCPs fewer, put more on mainstream education. That seems to be the sentiment which isn't landing well.
SPEAKER_01No, because if you make it fewer, we lose three billion pounds a year through people not being able to get a decent education and therefore go on to a decent job and then get promotions, earn more money, and put revenue back in to the system.
SPEAKER_07I guess the worry in the back of people's minds is if you've got an education system that's been used to doing it in an archaic way, perhaps, it could be argued, and you've got these four flavours you were mentioning of how people learn, how much change would be needed to education to accommodate that and be inclusive to people?
SPEAKER_01From a parental point of view, it would need a complete overhaul because the way that the teachers are being told to teach the children. I'd I know loads of teachers and they said we'd love to be able to do this and we'd love to be able to do that, but the policy or the governance or the directive from HQ is we can't. So we have to do it this way, even though I want to do it that way, I have to do it this way.
SPEAKER_07So the teachers seem to know how to do it better, how to move with the times. And Matt's a primary school teacher here.
SPEAKER_03Matt, um, yeah, no, we are all sort of trained to be sort of so we were trained to do therapeutic behavioural techniques, which is sort of a new way of looking at how to deal with behaviour in school. Um and it's bringing sort of maybe people who trained a while before into these new ways of doing things. Um I think there's a lot of teachers that would like to do certain things, but I think as we've just said, it's there's restrictions from the school from if you're a if you're an academy trust, you're gonna be held back because they want results at the end of the day. So they're gonna be pushing for a certain amount of children to get these certain level. Um so it depends on how inclusive your school wants to go. Um, so I've been very lucky in the two schools I've worked at. They've both gone with the therapeutic, they're both very inclusive in the ways. So we have a lot of training around how to become more inclusive in the classroom within the school as a whole. Um, as the numbers of special educational needs are coming through, um, you've got to adapt, you've got to change. Um I think it's now pulling other teachers through with it and starting to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_07But does that work for all children? So if you've got a a mixed group of mixed mixed abilities, I'm not sure if these are the correct words to use anymore, but mixed abilities. I mean, back in my day we had a top set, middle set, and and bottom set. I think that's a thing of the past. Um but how how do you create a system that works for everybody equally and where everyone can be their very best?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's balancing sort of what you've got in the class, so it's very much the workload of a teacher, depending on how much you want to put into it. So I very much try and make sure that there's differentiated work for all children so that you're making sure that you're challenging your hires, as we're saying they are, um, but also supporting your sort of lowers, uh, making sure that everyone has access to what you're doing in whatever shape. So I've got a non-verbal autistic child in my class, and it's very much they are involved in the learning, but just in a different style. So how are you developing the learning so that it fits them, but also fits everybody? It's it's how you you it's how much work you want to put into it.
SPEAKER_07And this is, I mean, and and send is just one call on that time. You've got lots and lots of other calls upon your time and more being put on your plate to accommodate. Um, so big round of applause to you, Matt, uh, for everything you do.
SPEAKER_01Paul, with your children, yeah, is that a class you'd like your children to be a part of? I would have loved that class for my children. They they would have they would have excelled.
SPEAKER_07My my youngest son, he because you've got pretty frustrated with the whole education system, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, definitely, because he he he's a very clever lad um in his own way. He's a he's doing manufacturing and engineering at college. When he was eight, he won an engineering competition for a national competition. And he came first with his idea of a of a special plaster to put on your body that can like measure sweat. And if you're nervous, it will send an alarm to somewhere if you've been kidnapped and stuff like this. And he won a major prize for that. If he was in class, he wouldn't have been able to develop that idea because he would have been shot down because he wasn't mixing in the same way as everybody else. He did his his his side-by-side play. He wasn't playing with people, he was playing alongside them. All the usual autistic traits that they have. Um, but even though we never got any CHP for him or for my other daughter, um I think £50,000.
SPEAKER_07And they're tough to get, right? They are very tough to get already. This is the frustration that's coming out and the sentiment across Facebook groups.
SPEAKER_01When you think that over a person's lifetime, lost revenue for the country is £2.9 million per person, £50,000 investment, that's that's that's nothing compared to £2.9 million loss.
SPEAKER_07It does seem to be it does seem to be a growing pain, and we're not able to pivot and adapt quick enough the education system to keep pace, and and more people are starting to become stuck in their bedrooms for want of a better word, and not doing training, not having jobs, and I think that's starting to be recognised.
SPEAKER_01It is, especially with the report that came out today of 16 to 24 year olds with nearly a million of them that will not either be in full-time education, apprenticeships, or work. And in Crawley, home ed has tripled over the last 10 years or so because of the frustrations of trying to get an ECHP within the school system, let alone within the home ed system.
SPEAKER_07And just before we bring other voices into it, are you happy with the white paper?
SPEAKER_01Do you think it's a step in the right direction? No, not really. I think it's going to be a very um counterproductive. It's going to be a barrier to people who really could fly in certain environments and certain educational systems. And it's just going to stop them. And they will then withdraw even more from school, they'll withdraw from society. Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing to do.
SPEAKER_07So if you were a Prime Minister, what what would you do to fix it?
SPEAKER_01Well, firstly, I'd give teachers the ability to teach, not to coach. I would give teachers the ability to be able to do, as Matt said, Therapeutic. Yes, and yeah, so you'd literally have for those that that are struggling in maths, say, who've got dyscalculus, but they're in the top for English, you would push them at English and coax them. What's the point of giving somebody who's got dyscalculus to do maths until they're 18? So why force them to do something that they're not? So allow them to adapt to their strengths. So just as long as they know they're gonna get paid, this is what tax is, this is what national insurance is, this is what a bill looks like.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so more flexible education, that would be your answer if you're prime minister. Matt, would you concur with that? Would you do any additional changes if you were Prime Minister?
SPEAKER_03Obviously, I'm gonna say uh more money for teachers. Um, but I also think the whole education needs more funding towards it, not just the pay for teachers. I know that they're gonna slap on that we're gonna strike because of the pay. It's it's not just that, it's it's the funding to schools. We're we're seeing more schools in deficit, and you're gonna lose more schools because of it, because you know we've lost a local school, Twinum, down the road from me, um, that's had to close because they haven't got the numbers, and you're gonna see more of that, and they'd be pushed into academy trusts, and um yeah, they've just got to be a little bit more than a lot of people.
SPEAKER_07But that's your prediction that's that's what I'd say.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, and also I think going back to the figures you were saying, isn't it? Yeah, um the figures you were saying, this it's £50,000 for if they go to a specialist school. If they're in mainstream school, it's not £50,000, it's a lot less than that. So uh if you look at it this way, we've got to pay for a one-to-one for a child. You're looking around £20,000 for a full-time one-to-one TA a year. The EHCP doesn't really cost cover that, it's about $13,000, £14,000. So the school is having to find that extra six, seven thousand within their own budget to make sure that we're gonna be able to do that. Which is all already diminishing without this being put on the because it's a legal document, the EHCP, we can't not do it. With you know, we're legally obligated to say, right, okay, we've got to fit the needs of this child, we've got to pay for the one-to-one, but we've also got to bring in certain other things, so whether that's therapists that come into the school or whether that's certain requirements they need to support their learning, we've got to find the funding for that. So, you know, any HCP is 50,000 for a specialist school, but it's definitely not for a mainstream school.
What Should Change In Education
SPEAKER_07Uh Abigail, both with your labour hat on and also the organisation that you help in this space.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I mean I'm absolutely passionate that every child, regardless of ability or what school they go to, should thrive and be able to create a successful lives for themselves. The issue with SEN is that it is a national crisis. We've got, as I looked up whilst everyone was talking, 647%.
SPEAKER_07And when you say S E N, that that's the special educational needs, but not disabilities. Well why do you do why do you differentiate between CEN and SEND?
SPEAKER_00Just because what we've been speaking about here has been very much more around the neurodivergent conversation rather than traditional maybe physical disabilities as we would define disability. I don't agree with that definition. Um but from a response just on sort of the neurodivergent side of things, is we we've got 640,000 children with an EHCP just in England as of last year. So whether that is £50,000 for a specialist school or or less, it's an incredibly huge amount of money. And we do really need to look at this process because as a counsellor, I get so many requests to ask can I support with an EHCP. Um sorry are not great at responding to the EHCP process, and many of the many of the cases go over the 20-week timeline which they're supposed to be done in. And by supporting more preventative measures by working with children much much younger, we will be able to hopefully not be as reliant on EHCPs because we'll have been able to work with that child to see where they actually need. Now, I would love to be able to see schools to have a little bit more freedom around how they teach their children because I think these how we learn actually that's not about neurodivergence or neurotypical. We all learn differently regardless, and we need to include that into our education. But something's got to give somewhere, something has to change. This system is not is not is not working, and I think that has to start with looking at prevention, it has to look at easing things up and being more reliant on individual learning plans. I appreciate teachers are under huge amount of stress and may not want to hear that because it does mean more work for them with less funding.
SPEAKER_07I So are you in support of the White Paper? Is that why I'm hearing broadly?
SPEAKER_00Broadly in support. I don't think it goes far enough.
SPEAKER_07What changes would you? If you were Prime Minister then of the Labor Party, what what changes would you make to it to make it better?
SPEAKER_00I think we need to find ways that children can all learn together. I'm not necessarily a fan of specialist schools, uh, unless it's so you're up for the mainstream, but making it more adaptable. More adaptable, more accessible, more inclusive around different learning methods. But I actually think, and I know this may not go down well with everyone, is we need to do a lot more outside of schools. And I'm not actually saying that's just our parents. I think there is a lot that we need to do with supporting children with additional needs that actually takes place outside of the school environment. School environment is hostile for a lot of children with S E N or disabilities, and how do we support them outside of the school environment to ensure that when they do go, they thrive, or when they're struggling, we can get them back in. And I'm talking to someone who who dropped out of school, so And and and even without considering send.
SPEAKER_07Uh I know our previous episode on education with a secondary school teacher, we changed her name, she was saying she was quite surprised that the parents weren't reading to their children at home out of school. So when we say out-of-school activities, people are so busy, so stressed, working all the time, they don't have time for the kids. It's those extracurricular activities, the reading uh with your kids at bedtime, all of that, I I guess you mean.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I that that side of things. I also think, you know, we've touched on it so many times, but screens uh too many children have screens from such a young age. Even actually, when I've watched kids' shows and I compare them to what they were when I grew up, and they're like manic, on the go, loud, in your face, and just hype your child up. Yeah. I just remember, you know, watching things like Pingu, which was quite chill. Watching what screens like Pingu and and quite quiet, calm.
SPEAKER_07That was Blue Peter, I was more of a.
SPEAKER_00I did watch Blue Peter too, yeah, it was still around. Um but I do I do really think we need we need to look at this from a point of view that is not all just on the EHCP. I think we're all reliant on because that has been the way of working, we've got to continue that.
SPEAKER_07And this has been the frustration of lots of people, EHCP, and and this came about from the 2014 Children and Families Act. Uh but it didn't go far enough, it wasn't prepared for COVID. So, you know, I think a lot of people believe COVID times made the situation worse. Diagnosis has gone up. But the white paper, just to just give you some headlines, it's to crack down on the high cost independent places that you're talking about, Abby. Um, digital EHCPs to make it more seamless so people um we can go through the process quicker, apparently. Digital EHCPs there, more teacher training, whether it's the right sort of training, let's see, but more teacher training. Uh mainstream inclusion push. So this is all around trying to keep people in the mainstream, but maybe adapting. Um, introduction of ISPs. There's another acronym they're going to bring in. The individual support plan. Is that a good thing, Abby?
SPEAKER_00I think it is, and I think it's something that's that just because you're Labour or because you're Abby? No, because I'm Abby, and actually because um I went to university, did my degree, did my master's, and I go back and lecture a lot at university. And I really like the models that university use, which are called individual support plans. Um, actually, and okay, universities have their own funding, but it's very much you sit down if you disclose that you're disabled or you're neurodivergent or got an additional need, you sit down with the disabilities team, you go through everything you may or may not need, takes half an hour, they put they put a paper piece of paper to go, it goes to your tutors, and that support just happens.
SPEAKER_07So you don't actually have and that's triggered by by the student.
SPEAKER_00By the student.
SPEAKER_07Okay, because in the workplace also you can do reasonable adjustments, it's a similar thing, but that can be triggered by both parties.
SPEAKER_00So I would like to see that sort of thinking come into schools rather than us have to rely on councils and really long-winded processes when a lot of this can be done quicker.
SPEAKER_07The concerns, the concerns, let me just add with ISPs, are here, yeah, funding is also less enforceable and parents may lose leverage, apparently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so there is so with an individual support plan, you don't you don't necessarily get up the funding that an EHCP gives you. I think you know at the moment the EHCP is predominantly the only answer so every child is getting an EHCP who may need a reasonable adjustment, and there is the argument that not every child needs the full EHCP. I am all in favour of making sure that every child has everything they need to thrive. So there will be children who do need that extra funding to be able to support them in education. I'm not sure by just having this one route it's working for everybody.
SPEAKER_07So we all agree that it needs to be a change.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_07And you're broadly in line with the white paper, albeit a couple of tweaks you'd make.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_07What's the biggest tweak?
SPEAKER_00I think it does come it does come to how we fund this because there are going to be areas where schools aren't making up the shortfall or can't make up the shortfall around things like um TAs, maybe additional equipment, and there's a lot of strain on schools to do that, and there is the fear for quite a lot of people that by changing everything that funding's going to go completely. I personally don't think it is. I think it's one thing having a white paper,
ISPs, Prevention And Funding Fears
SPEAKER_00we've got to see it work properly in practice. Um, and I think we will we will make it work and it will work, but there are going to be adjustments along the way, and hopefully my party will make them as needed.
SPEAKER_07It's a little worrying though, isn't it? Because I think to be fair to the education system, schooling's changed massively even when I was at school over those decades, it's been a few decades, it's changed considerably, and we want it to change further. I guess the worry in people's minds is we we want it to be inclusive, we want every child to succeed, every child to thrive in that environment, but at what cost? How much is feasible to do in that space versus all of the other departments, you know, benefits and everything else that needs to be funded as well? Let's just get James's perspective and then we'll go back to Paul and then Ickbel, who's just about to go through this process. We'll come to you in a moment, Ickbel. But James, uh, what would be reform's response to
Labels, Diagnosis And The Real World
SPEAKER_07this?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I would just want to go through some some facts and things that that Paul mentioned that I think are are worth mentioning. In terms of social mobility, I I don't think there's any proof that that's that's due to educational needs. Um it's yeah, it's um it's support. The three million pounds, I think, if you look at it over 50 years, that's £58,000 per year. Um in a household where you might have two people with that issue.
SPEAKER_01It's that's to per person 2.9 million per to per person over their lifetime. So that's not what they earn, that's what they also contribute to the economy.
SPEAKER_02Oh, so it's okay. I'm just a whole game. So like that's what they contribute. I thought it was what they cost.
SPEAKER_01So you're you wait if you went to a job, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got a contract and you make money for your company. So their earnings plus what they contribute to the company. So if they've got if they design something that suddenly goes like the guy who invented the music for Nokia.
SPEAKER_02His worth, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01So his his worth is is exponential to his actual.
SPEAKER_07Where are you going with it though, James? I'm just going through I'm going through.
SPEAKER_02Um what well I'm not sure I think James thought my mass was wrong. I'm going to I'm going through, I've got a list of um statistics that I've scrolled down. Um that I just wanted to go over because kick the tires. Kick the tires are stuck. Yeah, just to keep us honest. Um well it's it's just because I I they need they need mentioning. And then obviously, in terms of the um Matt mentioned that it's about £20,000 for a teaching assistant, and he's right, and then the reason the reason for this is um obviously we talked about an increase in pay for teachers, but teachers get paid for the time off over the other school holidays. Um and I'm not trying to say that you don't earn your money because I know I I'm sure you more than earn it, but if if we want to increase someone's salary, I think it has to be the teaching assistants, um, because it is, as you say, £20,000 a year, often case a lot less, and they can be managing classes, as I'm sure you've seen.
SPEAKER_07So So is this a reform, is this a James This is a James. This is a James thing, TAs should get paid more, teachers not. But the send, let's stay on topic with the send thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, just to clap here, in our ideal world, teachers would be paid more, but we only have a limited pot of money, and uh the the teeth the teaching assistants should be the ones uh first in line for that.
SPEAKER_07Compared to train drivers, should teachers get paid more?
SPEAKER_02Uh should teachers get more paid than train drivers? Well, I think certain people might say no, but I'll say yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_07Okay. And uh if you were Prime Minister, if you were Prime Minister, this white paper, yeah, what would you do with it? Tweak it, bin it, change it?
SPEAKER_02Uh change it or bin it really. I I think the I don't think labels help. Um as you said, we've had a labels as in diagnosing Yeah, with the condition. As we said But that can help though, right?
SPEAKER_07If someone's labelled ADHD and knowing how they can get the most out of the world around them relationships, I I think that can help. But you mean over-diagnosing where we're becoming a label culture.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, that's it. I mean we you as you say, we've had a massive increase since COVID in diagnosing. Now, it's one of three things. Either we've got we've got it spot on and we're diagnosing everyone, we're underdiagnosing or over-diagnosing. Now, for me, I don't know what you think, but we are overdiagnosing. And I think all these labels with everyone isn't going to help. I don't know what the people around this table think.
SPEAKER_01Do they think would you like some figures?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, I'd like to know whether you think we're it's a well-known fact that we're underdiagnosing.
SPEAKER_01Research has shown from uh these again from UNS.
SPEAKER_07So hang on, just answer the question. You think we're still underdiagnosing?
SPEAKER_01Oh, we're underdiagnosing, without a doubt. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They reckon there could be two million people with ADHD, 500,000 of which are diagnosed, approximately 1.5 million undiagnosed. Those on the autism spectrum disorder, about 1 to 2% of the population, 1 million, 250,000 of which are diagnosed, 750,000 undiagnosed. Dyslexia, about 10% of the population, 5.5, 5.3 million people, uh, that is yet to be um known about the actual diagnosed and undiagnosed, because dyslexia is quite um it forms part of other things like Erling syndrome. And dyspraxia, there's about 1.3 million people with dyspraxia.
SPEAKER_07And by getting diagnosed, what does that mean? So how does it help? Because it helps because I often wonder if I'm on some of these scales as well, because Well, I did, and until March of this year. Exactly. So you've gone through your whole life without benefiting from a label. Has it helped you getting that label?
SPEAKER_01But yes, it has, because it given me it's given me clarity. So all the things that are going on in my head, all those jumps of going from A to Z, still getting the right answer, but missing all the bits in the middle, I now know why. I always thought there might be something, but now I actually know why I'm skipping those bits and why my brain is different to most other people's. Interesting. And why I excel in some areas and why I am absolutely abysmal in others. There's no 50-50, it's like black and white. Sorry, but isn't everyone like that? Not all no.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no. Because you can do nice little shit. There's some people who are good at basketball, there's some people who are good at maths, there's some people who can lay bricks, and there's some people who can do algebra. That we're all so I I'm you know what? I'm not gonna lie to you, I've been sitting there getting messages from Holly. She's been telling me about all this stuff. But the more I listen to the. My son's going through it, and this is what I've always said. I just hear victim mentality. I just hear an excuse for why my life's not going the way it should be because I was let down and everywhere else. Everyone's ADHD. No one's the who's if you put a thousand people in a room, is every one of them thousand people gonna have the same brain work? No, everybody's an individual.
SPEAKER_07And this is what we were saying offline. You you were you're talking about your time at school and how you were sort of categorised as the naughty child.
SPEAKER_05No, no, I was just supposed to be out there.
SPEAKER_07What Paul's saying is instead of you being categorized as the naughty, disruptive child, let's let's let's you know expel him. If there were finer categories where they could say this.
SPEAKER_05How about no categories and we just say everybody's an individual? Well, that's no where it's gonna end up, right? That everyone's an individual and then these things. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm uh though, bear in mind I'm completely opposite to what Holly is saying. Yeah? She thinks this. I think personally, I believe AT ADHD and autism is a superpower. I've always said that. I believe if it's if it's nourished properly, if the parents do what they are supposed to do, because we can blame the schools, but it all starts at home. My children will become when I raised them to do.
SPEAKER_07Do you feel it's about blame? I I get it. Oh, definitely.
SPEAKER_05I think the people are looking for scapegoats. My life is not the way it is because I was not diagnosed. What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_07It's a bit like in the workplace we we talk about the conditions for success to allow a team to be most successful. What are the conditions to put in place to allow creativity, innovation, that kind of thing? Of course. In a school environment, I think what we're talking about is the education, the practice, the curriculum, how the methods, the techniques, change. So you agree with that.
SPEAKER_05I think that's that's what I'm saying is not every child, including myself and my son, are supposed to be sat in a classroom for six hours. But just because he can't sit in a classroom for six hours, don't tell me he's ADHD, attention deficit. No, he wants to go kick a football. But but he's a kid. Yeah, under strict guidelines to don't get out of that seat. Okay.
SPEAKER_07But I think what we're saying is the classroom, not the classroom that we visualize, in a chair with the desk doing academia. Of course. I think what we're exploring is other methods of education.
SPEAKER_05But what okay, there's a holiday message, me, my son's been waiting for a diagnosis for four years. This is an EHCP. Um that's taken four years to get to the two. Two years so far, he's got another two years to go. But in these two years, all I've heard from everyone, including his mother, including school, he he's he's this, he's that. What are you talking about? I know who my son is. My son just doesn't learn. So he's not a victim.
SPEAKER_07So you've not found it helpful.
SPEAKER_05Not at all. Because now you'll get he's he finishes school at one o'clock, so now he's feeling like he's not adequate uh adequate. No, my son isn't a victim. He he's got superpowers, but he does it things differently. I do things differently, James does, Clive does it. We all do something differently, but we've got to stop with the victim mentality and blaming everybody else. Firstly, I believe it starts at home with the parents.
SPEAKER_07Okay, let's hear a response from Paul because because I like the super power.
SPEAKER_05I was only because I was listening to him. Holly didn't send me something agreeing with everything everyone else does. No, no, but I'm just saying we just need to stop the victim mentality, blaming the schools, blaming the government. If your children aren't successful, it starts with the parents.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's an absolute duck can't swear. Um it's not it is not bear in mind it's an appearance where all the people not chasing people for victimization. We're not saying you said victim, victim a victim.
SPEAKER_05In the way you were talking, I heard a victim talking. And that's what's made me actually say, you know what, my child isn't a victim. My child is definitely not a victim. And what made him sound like a victim to me?
SPEAKER_01No one no one says they are victims. We're saying that the system is not adequate for them to get to the very best that they can.
SPEAKER_07What did parents say?
SPEAKER_01How does that say you blame the parents? You can't blame every parent. I you cannot blame every parent. Yeah, I'm I would put myself down as being quite a good dad.
SPEAKER_08No, okay. All right.
SPEAKER_01When we got earlier on, I'm like so many parents. No, you've had your children.
SPEAKER_05One second, I tried to say, how many parents do you know who don't read to their children? How many parents do you know who don't do arts and crafts? Don't do play. I'm not talking about it. I'm saying in general. It's a very, it's very listen, no one reads to their kids anymore, no one does arts and crafts, no one does maths, no one sits at home doing blocks and they don't teach their children at home. They drop them off to nursery and they think that they should be ready. So here, see you later. And that's what it is. You know how I know? Because my missus works in a nursery, and the amount of kids who turn up there and they don't even know how to do ABCs before they got there is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_07Because every one of my children knew, and they you know, I I have to say sorry, I'm a bit passionate, but it's clear how passionate you are and how personal it is, especially your son as well, because your son going through this as we speak. Yeah. So I guess let's let Paul respond because I don't think Paul was coming across as a victim.
SPEAKER_05He was looking at from what I was hearing, okay, was the world is to blame for why things aren't the way they should be.
SPEAKER_01And I don't I don't agree with that. That's not what I'll say. People that have identity of autism as we're on the subject, they are not victims. It's not their fault their brain is wide set differently. It's not their fault that if it wasn't for a gay, atheist, autistic person, you wouldn't have any of this equipment in front of you. You wouldn't have that phone. The war would have gone on for two more years and millions of people would have died. But Alan Turing created something called a computer which changed everything. He changed he created the algorithms. He is not a victim. We are not victims. And your point is that he wouldn't do well in the school. He would never have done well at school. He didn't do well at school. He went to a boarding school and got absolutely trashed. But when the country needed help, he went to what's the name GCH? Was that the the code? The Enigma code. Yeah, yeah, the film, the film's don't don't read the book.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, read the book. But more to the point is that he used his superpower as Eggbell was saying. That's what I was saying.
SPEAKER_01He went to Cambridge. He went to Cambridge, but he was beaten up. He was bullied.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I'm not talking about that, we're talking about we're talking about how he did academic.
SPEAKER_01He did not fit in at school. He had one friend.
SPEAKER_02He did well at school.
SPEAKER_01He did what he had one friend called Christopher. And that was his only friend, and then Christopher.
SPEAKER_00I guess it depends which way you because I I I'm assuming here, but James is looking at it from a academic success point of view, and you're looking at it from a socialization point of view. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02When you say when you say do well at school, you don't go, if I said I did well at school, I had a you know, it's a it's a lovely time, it was a it was a good jolly. That's not doing well in school. Doing well in school is is based on the results. That's how we measure if you did well in school.
SPEAKER_01So when kids aren't given that chance to do well at school, to their own.
SPEAKER_02But the con the conversation was whether you enjoyed it or whether you did well. To their abilities.
SPEAKER_01It wasn't but to their abilities if they're not being allowed to get to the best that they can, for them it might just be going along and being social with their friends. It might be for others to learn how to do quadratic equations.
SPEAKER_02You shouldn't go to school to have to it shouldn't the primary objective of going to school shouldn't be to have a good time with your friends.
SPEAKER_01But actually, if you ask most kids, they'll say they'd like to go there because they're making their own.
SPEAKER_02You have to do things like that.
SPEAKER_01Well who wants to ask most kids?
SPEAKER_05Most kids want to eat bloody ice cream from this.
SPEAKER_02If you said to people at work, adults would say the same thing, but the reason you go to work is it is for the vast majority of people is to pay their bills. That that's that's that's life. Um we can't.
SPEAKER_07But surely when when we think about education and we think, did someone do well at school, university, whatever it might be? It's usually down to grades, isn't it? I know people that have done very well and gone on to do PhDs, but in life, because of lack of communication, lack of connection, lack of you know, it's common sense in some ways, not done so well, right? So, do we need to change the measures of what success is in education? Is it just about grades or other things like the connection and the human element for the other thing?
SPEAKER_01For some people, it is about grades. If they've got a plan in mind and they want to do something with their life, then they're gonna go for grades. Some kids they don't even know what they want to do when they're 15, 16. Why
Success, League Tables And Inclusion
SPEAKER_01pile 12 GCSEs onto somebody who won't need them, who in most of their life will get by quite easily before.
SPEAKER_05But that's the problem. Sorry, one second. Um, if we are not gonna push our children to excel, what do we wish? Like, come on, like what are you talking about? Oh well. So from what I hear is like you yeah, uh-uh. So hang on, the the word push, the word like if if if it's our children, we mould them to become who they are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if I if I may, sorry, it's I would actually go, I'm gonna agree with Paul on this one. Um, but I think also like Iqbal is yes, success doesn't necessarily mean um going to university. Um of course not. So I think I think Grayson always thinks, you know, I know most entrepreneurs and millionaires today never went to school.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And I know lots of tradesmen that earn a lot more money than people that go to university, and and so there's there's different kinds of success. But the uh do I think that uh giving somebody a label from a young age is going to benefit them? I no, I don't, I I I do think it's overdiagnosed. Um so so for clarification, I've mentioned this on Puzzle Book before, until until recently, my mother was a teacher assistant. Uh I went to the school, but it's the the closest one to where we are now. Now, they have six pairs of of ear defenders like you have on a building site per class of 30. Now, do we want one in five children wearing ear defenders because they don't like noise? Now, i i I like I like peace and quiet, but if I went to an office and I or I went to a job interview and I was wearing ear defenders, is that gonna benefit me? Am I gonna get that job? Is that gonna be an improvement on my life, or is is that gonna coddle me into an environment that's overly safe and totally unrealistic for the real world?
SPEAKER_00My main issue with all of it is when it comes to this debate between sort of what you'd say a physical disability is and neurodivergence, because I could assume that everyone around here, if they had a child born with a physical disability who needed real support to walk, would do absolutely everything to ensure that child could walk. That would be AIDS, that would be rehabilitation, physio diagnosis, getting that child to be able to walk. When it comes to neurodivergence, we seem to just forget about that bit. We seem to go, oh well, it's it's down to behaviour or it's down to parents or down to schools. At the end of the day, it is still a disability. There is still a difference in the brain that causes these issues with either socialization, with certain parts of learning, and it's a huge spectrum, right? I'm dyscalculus, but I wouldn't identify as neurodivergent. I got by at maths, I failed it, but I got by the biggest.
SPEAKER_07But you wouldn't you wouldn't appreciate parents pushing you in maths because clearly no, they did push me.
SPEAKER_00My my my granddad worked in finance, I think he would have wanted me to go into So you agree with Ickbell that actually being pushed is that sort of m of my end of the spectrum of it is one very small area. But there is so many people out there with a special educational need where it does affect everything. I have sat with children who physically can't talk, who physically can't go out of their house, who will scream and shout, and the parents are doing absolutely everything. Now there is an issue that parents aren't reading to their children and doing extra things in general. Maybe, who knows? I don't know the data. I don't think there's been a study between you know those parents and diagnoses. But to put all autistic neurodivergent children in the same box, I think it's just really unfair.
SPEAKER_03I think there's points that we can take from everyone. It's going back to what we were saying about celebrating. We have in school where we celebrate different regardless of what it is. So we have a day where we talk about differences of all different scientists, all different actors, all different footballers, all of these people that you'll see all have so many different labels, but we celebrate them because we try and encourage the children to know that whatever you are encouraged to just be yourself and enjoy being in school. And I think you could take it back to a lot of things. We're going back to statistics and saying, okay, well, it's about getting these children to get a certain amount of grades and all of this lot. Well, if I'm putting my green party hat on for a moment, we need to sort of scrap the league tables. Why are we focusing so much on league tables? Why are we putting the pressure on the schools? Which is then pressuring the children because we're going, you need to get a level six, otherwise we're gonna look bad. Why? Why why is that? We need to celebrate the school for being inclusive to all, and that's everybody, and doing as much as they can. We are where I am at, we've got a great outdoor space. If we want to do maths outside, we're going outside. You know, I'm gonna be finding leaves or tr wigs, however else we can show the learning so that it fits the need of all. And I think that's what we need to celebrate more in schools and drive towards is having this inclusive learning and being open to different ways of doing it and get rid of the lead tables, get rid of offstead, get you know, these things that are putting pressure on schools the whole time because we're thinking, Oh, we've got that next year, we've got to make sure we get that, we've got to make sure all of these criteria are ticked off and look amazing. We are the ones that spend a lot of time with these children, we see them in and out every day. I you know, I'd like to think I know all 30 in my class. Um, I could tell you probably where their favourite holiday place are, and we get to know them a lot like the parents, and you make a bond with these children and things. I think I can grade their abilities, I know their strengths, I know their weaknesses. Why am I putting them for a test?
SPEAKER_07How much flexibility do you feel as a teacher you have? How much empowerment to go and be creative and explore these different learning depends on the school.
SPEAKER_03Again, very much on the school. So I've been very lucky in the school that I'm in that is very much like because we're a standalone academy, we can do what we would like in the school. We're not driven by some CEO or some, you know, top-down telling us you have to do this and we need to fund more of that. Where we can do more. So it's kind of going, okay, what how are you gonna adapt this learning so that they're creative? So I've seen children down in reception, they're reading, we're going on a bear hunt. They're going through the woods, they're actually going on the bear hunt because it's inclusive to all children. You're not stopping the children that can't read the book because they're able to listen to it, they're able to sort of go through it and reenact it and think, oh, okay, I can understand this, but from a different perspective.
SPEAKER_07And and just quickly, I I I know as the UK generally we we like to think we know better than the rest of the world and countries, but are there countries that that excel in this? I'm thinking like the Nordics, maybe Germany, or are any other country ahead of us in this sort of education for
International Comparisons And Class Sizes
SPEAKER_07SEN?
SPEAKER_03You can see a lot of the sort of Scandinavian countries. So there's a lot of push to do uh something called forest schools, which is sort of going outside, being more inclusive with nature and a different way of learning. So uh my previous school I was at, they do it for every year group for a half a term they go outside. You know, they get that inclusive outdoor time. So they're not sat in a classroom, they're not sat at a desk, they're not like you know, looking out the window going, oh, I want to be out there. They're getting to be at one with nature, and that you see a lot of that with the Scandinavian countries. But I think you could flip it again. The Scandinavian countries they have a slightly different tax system and things they're able to fund the education system a bit better than I think we are here in the world.
SPEAKER_07Well, we're getting closer to that tax system. James, I I saw your ears prick up because you know, this countryside is that taking you back to your Welsh days? Um it is in many ways.
SPEAKER_02I mean the forest schools is something I think we can all agree on. Um have actually helped maintain the local forest schools um in in Cophon. Um so the the the way we measure schools globally is is the PISA uh is via PISA. There's not a single Scandinavian country on there. Um it's countries like Singapore, Macau, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea. They're the top five, none of which have uh liberal schoolings. Um and what we what we saw in terms of when when we say we want to get rid of any sort of pressures for schools to do well, well we increased these pressures um in in 2010. And I've got the statistics here because we we shot up those PC scales and we didn't um where I grew up in Wales, we didn't inc introduce these the same measures and we went down and our and our standard of education got worse. So the statistics since we introduced these these measures and putting a lot more pressure on school to actually provide the best outcome for the children, which is what they're there for. That you know, I understand that more pressure isn't always fun, but that is what they're there for. It's about the children, and they have worked. I mean, science, we've gone from 16th to 13th, reading, we've gone from 25th to 13th, and mathematics, we've gone from 27th to 12th. The increase is is massive, and it's been so positive for the children that have gone. I mean, I think there are too many people going to university, but the amount of people going to university these days, the educational standards that that being stricter to children and putting more pressure on the schools to have that accountability is incredible. And there's a generation of children that are really lucky, you know. Yes, the teachers had to go go through more pressure, and that's not always nice, but that the standards have shot up. And I think it's hard to argue that bringing those measures in was in any rate a bad thing. Because look look at what it's done, and if we can encourage that and and go further, we could genuinely have the best schools in the world. If we go back, we'll we'll continue sinking on the league tables.
SPEAKER_03Can we look at also the happiness index? Because if you look at the Scandinavian countries and probably the children there, they're a lot happier than say some of those countries that are top of the so-called again.
SPEAKER_07What were the countries again, James, that that you would aspire to be? Singapore is that correct?
SPEAKER_02Aspire to be or I want to say aspire to be when we're looking at educational standards, the pizza scales are the one.
SPEAKER_07But I think Matt's point is there's a balance, right? Do you want to be you know towards some of those countries where it's gonna be you can imagine the education?
SPEAKER_02I think uh well well, I uh you try to feed people in Singapore and say, did you have an unhappy schooling?
SPEAKER_05At the same time, happiness, what is happiness? It's a fleeting moment. Nobody's happy all day long, 24. It's a it's happiness is like your team scores. Yay! But guess what?
SPEAKER_07That's I don't a happiness like you worry me, but you're becoming more and more reformists.
SPEAKER_05Listen, don't worry.
SPEAKER_03If he goes to Mecca, I'll I'll follow for Raj. If we come off of the happiness, then okay, let's look at class sizes. Search those schools. Singapore, probably got 20-25 children in the classroom. I've got 30 to 32, I can have 32 maximum in my class. So, you know, it's harder. What's their support system like, you know?
SPEAKER_02So just just just to be big quick. Um, uh do I think that you should have smaller class sizes? Do I think you've got a very, very difficult job and is it getting more difficult? Yes. And I can I can see that you're very passionate, and so I don't want any of this to be uh seen as an attack on you. Um but we we we've the point is is with with uh do I want class sizes smaller, do I want more more money for education at 100%? But we've managed to increase we could increase it more if we had smaller class sizes, yes, but we've managed to increase how well we're doing without decreasing the class size. Um not to say decreasing class size isn't a good thing, but it's not just about that. Um and so and it it has worked, and I think it's hard to say that hasn't. The statistics are there, and yes, it sometimes you have to make tough decisions. You know, a child might want to eat ice cream and drink Coca-Cola um and and sit on their Xbox, but sometimes you say have a banana, go outside and go climb a tree and fall off it. You have to make those tough children uh choices for children, um, because it it it's paid off in the long run. And I think that the people that grew up with a with a far superior education system are probably really grateful. And yes, probably was it more difficult? Yes, but that's not a bad thing. And I think a less stressful um a less stressful um l uh life is due to a successful education.
SPEAKER_07James, from what I'm saying, you're saying that SEN's not an issue, education, we're on the right path, just needs to do more. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_02Uh no, uh I I think the the current where we're going is is an issue. Um children are all different, um, but that doesn't mean that we need to label them. Um we need we need to work with children the best that the best they are, but unfortunately with children you you have to make tough decisions, and a child might not always like those decisions, but uh as an adult, the teacher has the best interests at heart.
SPEAKER_07So strangely enough, you and Ick Bell uh are more aligned on this topic. Uh Matt, closing comments from you.
SPEAKER_03I think from teacher. As
Teacher Burnout And Parent Survival Tips
SPEAKER_03a teacher, yeah, from a teacher head here. I think it's um yeah, there just needs to be more done. It's it's tough times. You're seeing a teacher retention crisis. Uh, you know, you've got I I've seen people leaving. I've there's one at our school that's a teacher going because she burnt out, and you know, we're all close to it. I had to carry both of your three classes for a while when uh one of the staff members was on long-term sick. It's a tough area to be in, and uh it's not all about the pay, it's about making sure that the school has the right funding, has the right backing to take the children in the right direction and support every child in that school, uh, irregardless of any label we want to put on them.
SPEAKER_07And I have to say, I think everyone around this table can feel your passion for the children and giving them the best experience. So I have to say, I really applaud what you do. Do you have hope that things will improve? Are you planning to stay in the career? Because I worry that people like you will just have enough and just think, listen, this isn't for me right now.
SPEAKER_03It all depends on the school and who you've had. So I've I've had a great mentor through my ECT years at the school that I'm at, um, which is early careers teacher time that I've had, um, and great support network within the school. You don't get that all over. I've got people who I went to university with who are leaving the profession already. I think there's a lot that needs to change as worrying times ahead. I think you see it from teachers, but you see it from parents, like just briefly touch on the you've got the change coming from the county council to unitary authority. Parents are worried about how these EHCPs are gonna work when it changes. It's the complete unknown, and it's whatever uh happens over the next few years running up to the next uh general election, it's which party's gonna be in power and uh how are they gonna make sure that the education system is protected because uh it's worrying times.
SPEAKER_07Thank you very much, Matt. Uh Paul, um, how warm are you feeling about the future?
SPEAKER_01It's really bad. I I I'm as Matt said, the the pressure that teachers are under to uh hit these targets at the behest of those above who think they know it all when the teachers know their kids better than anybody. And in some instances they probably spend more time with their kids than some parents do if they're working three jobs to try and make men's meet. They're the ones that know those kids the best. They know what's educationally wise, they know what they can do, what they can't do, where they need help, where they where they can be pushed, and where they need to be coerced, and where they need to be cajoled.
SPEAKER_07And with your experience as a parent that's gone through this for many years, what top three tips would you give parents listening to this thinking, you know what, I'm just about to embark on that journey. Um what pearls of wisdom would you have?
SPEAKER_01My first pearl of wisdom would be probably take your kid out of school and home educate for a while. Um, give them a break from the pressure of school because kids don't necessarily need to be learning stats. I mean, what's a stat? It's not anything for the kid, that's just a measurement for the school. That's just putting extra pressure on kids. My kids, when they did their stats, were absolutely horrified because they thought if they didn't get this score, they'd be like their lives would be ruined. It's not nothing to do with them, it's the school.
SPEAKER_07But but but it's quite a commitment to take your kid out of school and homeschool.
SPEAKER_01It is a massive commitment, and it is one that is not for the faint-hearted, it's hard work. But when you see your kid, like my youngest, winning the award for volunteer, the community awards, she's eight.
SPEAKER_07Oh well done, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, eight years old. Goes to show hasn't been in school ever. Her vocabulary, everyone thinks she's like 11. She does four or five different physical activities a week. We she does English, math, science, all that kind of stuff. And she is just a wonderful, wonderful young lady.
SPEAKER_07So for us And that is an option from the time. My my cousin uh Nicholas went through a similar a similar thing homeschooled and and and and doing really well for himself.
SPEAKER_01And unfortunately, a lot of parents of ADHD neurodivergent children end up being forced into her into home education because the schools don't have the training, they don't have the money, they don't have the time, they don't have the the the weather all to help that child.
SPEAKER_07And what a top dad you've been. So well done, Paul. Well done. Iqbel, I guess you've got all this to come.
SPEAKER_05Uh well yes, I was just in the middle of messaging Holly telling her that uh You're learning about although everything that she sent me, everyone else agreed with. I mostly didn't. Um no no, but obviously uh on a serious note, yes, the schools are they're slacking. We can't blame the teachers, we have to blame the people who created the system and run the system. At the same time parents and uh yeah, like I just my like I just okay, he's my son. I don't I I know he's just like me. I'm uh apparently ADHD and autistic because I am, yeah, but at the same time, imagine being eight years old and being told you need to go home at one o'clock.
SPEAKER_07And and and it's quite timely because this has all come about today for you, so it's real time happening on text messages as well as it's like.
SPEAKER_05I knew most of it, but like I got the does she does the the real stuff. Exactly, exactly. But hopefully you've found this useful. Oh 100%.
SPEAKER_07I've definitely found it educational, but before we move on, Abby, any final thoughts from you?
SPEAKER_00I th I think we've got to come to a place where we don't see neurodivergence as as something bad,
Final Thoughts And How To Join
SPEAKER_00you know. It it is a difference, and I think we need to look at how we talk about neurodivergence as the same way as physical disability, because I can guarantee if we sat and had this conversation about supporting physical disappoint disabled kids, it'd be completely different. Um, but we do we do need to do more to look at how we crack down on what is becoming an epidemic, and by crack down I don't mean on the kids, on how how we support them, because everything deserves to thrive.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it does need a pivot. Something something more radical needs to happen, it's not just a gradual change. And I think um just in terms of wrapping up, most people agree on one thing that children with additional needs deserve dignity, understanding, and the chance to thrive. I guess the real debate is whether society is willing to build and properly fund a system capable of delivering it. I think that's that's pretty much summing it up. Would you agree, James?
SPEAKER_02Uh I I I think we all want dignity now. I think we're all coming to this from a point of wanting the best. Um if I could just quickly add relation to what um Abby was saying. I mean, I mean I agree with what you're saying. The uh the only thing I would say is it sometimes feels like uh to to use to to compare it to somebody with a physical disability, you're putting people in wheelchairs who only need crutches and it's it's it's not helping them learn to walk. Um and so I think I think that's perhaps where where the disagreement is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, to and to an extent I'd I'd agree, like I said earlier on, is that the whole idea of of extending out from the EHCP is because not every child with SN needs an EHCP. We've got to look at every child individually and what's best what's best for them. And I do believe that under the current before the white papers um goes into practice, is we probably do have some kids who are being given over support. But on the flip side, there are probably many more kids who are not getting enough.
SPEAKER_07This has been a useful conversation. Thank you very much. We'll be revisiting this topic. If you want to find out more, do listen to our other episodes at Spotify and come and join the Facebook group Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Many thanks to special guest uh Matt Bruin, uh also Paul Taylor Burr, uh, and Ike Balkan, Abigail Chapman Miller, and James Tidey. That is another episode of Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Hope you enjoyed it.
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